Episode 209. “We bought a house we can’t afford, now what?”

Sunnie (29) and Jazmyne (30) are a queer couple trying to build their life together—buy a house, bring a child into their family, and create long-term financial security. But with just one primary income and a major surgery planned for next year, every decision feels high stakes.

They earn a combined $180,000 and just bought their first home; but between rising costs, paycheck-to-paycheck living, and intense pressure on Sunnie as the breadwinner, their financial conversations often swing from optimistic to explosive.

With no shared plan, no savings for a wedding, and looming fears about safety and stability, can they align on a vision for their future—and build a financial plan that supports it?

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Transcript 

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[00:00:00] Jazmyne: If you would’ve asked us six months ago when we were going to buy a house, we would’ve told you six years maybe. This was just not in our five-year plan. It wasn’t even in our one-year plan.

[00:00:08] Ramit: Can you afford it?

[00:00:10] Sunnie: She’ll probably say no.

[00:00:12] Jazmyne: I worry, God forbid, anything happens to him and his finances. Leaning back on me, we going to fall.

[00:00:20] Ramit: So you basically doubled your expenses on housing.

[00:00:22] Sunnie: I brought it up to her about buying a house when the political climate changed. I’m Black. She’s mixed. I’m trans. I just thought it was really important for us to have at least property that was ours.

[00:00:33] Ramit: You make 147 a year, and they told you you could pay 850 for a house? Okay. Attention all lenders in America. You [Bleep]. 

[00:00:38] Sunnie: I’m scared of doing something wrong and not being able to come back from it. I really do want to make change.

[Narration]

[00:00:48] Ramit: I’m about to talk to Sunnie and Jazmyne. They’re newly married. They just bought a house in DC, and they have never really talked about money. Their first real conversation about it happened recently over dinner, and that conversation ended in silence.

[00:01:05] Taking a look at their numbers, I’m going through their Conscious Spending Plan or CSP. You can download a free template at iwt.com/csp.

[00:01:17] They make about $180,000 a year, but they’ve got $45,000 in credit card debt, zero invested, and no savings. And here’s the part that really stood out to me. They didn’t buy the house because it was a smart financial move. They bought it out of fear, fear of what could happen under another Trump presidency. So they’re now here sitting and asking, what did we just do? Honestly, I’m wondering the same thing.

[Interview]

[00:01:47] Ramit: You recently got my new book, Money for Couples, and as you started talking about money, you said it was not going well. What happened?

[00:01:56] Sunnie: When we talk about money, it can go really good. It can go really bad. There’s no in between. So I told her about the book and how one of the things I wanted to incorporate was monthly meetings. We like to eat out, and so we decided to use it as our monthly date. I got very frustrated the way I felt like Jazmyne was answering some of the questions in the book.

[00:02:19] And her response was, “I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.” And I got frustrated in the restaurant and it got really hostile. And then dinner just ended early, and we left on a quiet note.

[00:02:31] Ramit: Money for Couples, the nightmare. Who knew? Okay. Jazmyne, would you agree with how Sunnie describes it?

[00:02:38] Jazmyne: I will. I think one of the examples in the book was planning your perfect vacation. And in your book, it was telling us to be very specific. So I’m thinking of my favorite perfect vacation. So I guess mines wasn’t as detailed as it was supposed to be. It was like, I want to be on a beach.

[00:02:59] He’s like, “Okay, what beach?” I did respond, “I don’t know.” Because I don’t know that many beaches. And then he was like, “So what are we doing at the beach?” “Relaxing on the boat?” “What kind of boat?” “A yacht.” “What kind of yacht?” “I don’t know.” He wanted me to be very specific. And it wasn’t, I don’t know, because I don’t want to do this exercise. It was, I don’t know, because I legitimately have never thought about it. So he was getting a bit frustrated with me.

[00:03:25] Ramit: And Sunnie, when you were asking these questions, what kind of beach, what kind of boat, etc., what was going through your head?

[00:03:31] Sunnie: We got to figure this out because all through this process, we were going through the home buying process, and so for me, I was like, “I want to get through these books because I really want to implement this stuff and get it set up by the time that first mortgage comes.”

[00:03:45] Ramit: Okay. Should we look at the numbers?

[00:03:48] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:03:49] Ramit:  All right. What was it like doing this conscious spending plan together?

[00:03:53] Sunnie: It was actually really good. It feels good to say that too because our past conversations of with money– once we finished it though, I think we both were in shock. For me, it was more seeing the difference on paper. And also, this was our first time really digging into each other’s real numbers.

[00:04:11] Ramit: I love the honesty. A lot of people think that couples talk substantively about money when it comes to their wedding. They don’t. They literally pick a number, and that’s pretty much the extent of how they do it. They don’t sit down and open up their income and debt. And what about this? And I’ve put this money in a savings account. It doesn’t happen.

[00:04:33] It doesn’t even happen for a house. Sometimes, but often not. So you did the CSP, had a positive time. I love that. Let’s take a look. Sunnie, can you read the words in bold and then the full number next to it for this entire net worth box?

[00:04:49] Sunnie: Assets, 566,000.

[00:04:52] Ramit: Investments?

[00:04:53] Sunnie: 0.

[00:04:54] Ramit: Okay. Savings?

[00:04:56] Sunnie: 3,250. Debt, $578,775

[00:05:04] Ramit: Okay. Total net worth?

[00:05:06] Sunnie: Negative $9,525.

[00:05:09] Ramit: What does it mean that you’re negative $9,000 net worth?

[00:05:13] Jazmyne: I know negative is not good.

[00:05:15] Sunnie: We owe more than we have.

[00:05:17] Ramit: Yeah, that’s true. You know a lot of people do. Did you know that?

[00:05:21] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:05:21] Jazmyne: No, I didn’t know that.

[00:05:22] Ramit: A lot of people owe more than they have. Sometimes it’s because when you first buy a house, it’s like driving a car off the lot. Your car is worth less than you paid for it the instant you drive off the lot. Have we all heard that expression before?

[00:05:38] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:05:39] Ramit: Same thing with a house. When you buy a house, a lot of people have 20, 30, 50 or 1,000 or more of closing costs and all kinds of escrows and stuff like that. If you were to try to turn around and sell it the next day, they would lose money. That’s just a very simplified example of why people might have a negative net worth.

[00:05:59] Then people have student loans. Sometimes they have 25, 50, 100, 200k of student loans. That puts them at negative. But that doesn’t mean you’re a good or bad person. So you all have a negative net worth, but I notice a couple of things. Number one, I notice you’re young. So if you were 58 and this were the case, this would be alarming. You’re both, what, 27. Correct?

[00:06:19] Jazmyne: We just turned 28.

[00:06:20] Sunnie: 28 on Saturday.

[00:06:21] Ramit: Okay, great. So that’s good. 20s. We got time to do a lot of things. You have more debt than your mortgage. You mentioned student loans and credit card debt. And then you have no investments and low savings, which to me is a big problem. We’re going to tackle that as well. So what I’m telling you is I’m not immediately alarmed by this number, but I’m curious. Let’s keep working our way down. This time, Jazmyne, I’m going to ask you, what is the combined gross monthly income number?

[00:06:55] Jazmyne: $14,948.

[00:06:58] Ramit:  All right. Great. So that’s per month. So your gross combined annual income is $179,000 a year. Who knew that number? Put your hand up if you knew that number. Both knew that number? Wow. Hey. Good job. That’s very impressive. So you’re basically making $180,000 a year. What do you guys think about that?

[00:07:21] Jazmyne: That’s pretty good.

[00:07:23] Ramit: Outstanding. 180 in your 20s.

[00:07:28] Jazmyne: In our 20s, yes. That’s good.

[00:07:29] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:07:30] Ramit: This is a big deal. $180,000 combined income, and you’re not even 30. You’re just married. That is really impressive. Fantastic work. I want to hear about this purchase. How did this happen where you said this wasn’t even on your 10-year, one-year plan? Walk me through it.

[00:07:49] Sunnie: I brought it up to her about buying a house when the political climate changed because I started to do some research and just things that were happening in the world. And I knew how important it would be for a family like ours to really own some property moving forward in the future.

[00:08:07] Ramit: What do you mean family like yours?

[00:08:09] Sunnie: One being multiracial. I’m Black. She’s mixed. Also, with me being trans, I just thought it was really important for us to have something, at least property that was ours. I guess I was predicting of what the future could hold, depending on, at the time, who was going to win presidency.

[00:08:27] And what I predicted happened in the sense of all the EO orders and things like that changing. I just figured if life or the future goes one way, I at least need to have something like this where if I need cash on hand, equity, anything, I have it. If something happens to me, she’s going to be okay.

[Narration]

[00:08:49] Ramit: I just want to jump in quickly to make it very clear that when Sunnie said, “I just thought it was important for us to own something.” He wasn’t being dramatic. For people of color and the LGBTQ+ community, fear of losing rights or even personal safety is very real.

[00:09:08] Many people don’t know, but in recent American history, there was something called redlining, which meant many, many communities across the country explicitly would not allow people of color to buy houses there. And they used the power of law to keep people of color out of neighborhoods. There was even a recent New York Times article on racial covenants in contracts that still exist, saying, “You are not allowed to sell this to a Black person.”

[00:09:42] This is recent American history. You can imagine what happens to communities, for example, people in the Black community who have been told and seen their own parents and grandparents having housing stripped away from them while other people built massive wealth on single family homes. This is why money is political.

[00:10:06] This is why we have to understand that your experience with money and housing is probably quite different than other people’s experience with it. So yes, there is a reason that people feel drawn to own something, especially when your identity has been politicized.

[00:10:25] But I have to say, just because you are scared or just because you had a message passed down generation after generation doesn’t mean the math works. Because once you’ve signed the papers, the bills come, and they don’t stop coming.

[Interview]

[00:10:42] Ramit: Okay. So you brought this up with Jazmyne and then, Jazmyne, what was your reaction?

[00:10:47] Jazmyne: I said, “Okay, let’s go look at some houses.” I did not think in the beginning that we would be here. I did think that we were just looking at open houses for fun.

[00:10:56] Ramit: That’s classic American pastime, is to go to open houses on a Saturday and then you’re like, “Who lives in here? Ugh. They have the worst taste.” All that stuff.  All right. How much was the house?

[00:11:10] Sunnie: It was 526.

[00:11:11] Ramit: 526.  All right. Cool. Did you run your numbers before you bought the house? Did you know how much you could afford?

[00:11:17] Sunnie: Yes.

[00:11:18] Ramit: Okay. First of all, [Bleep]. So rare. Okay, now I got to know. What did you run? Tell me how you ran those numbers.

[00:11:27] Sunnie: I ran it with the lender.

[00:11:28] Ramit: Oh [Bleep]. Hold on.

[00:11:31] Sunnie: But wait.

[00:11:31] Ramit: Hold on, hold on. I want to rewind and enjoy the three seconds of pleasure I had in my life for once before it got abruptly erased from me. [Bleep] ran it with the lender. What’d the lender tell you? Oh, you could spend 60%, no problem. What’d they say?

[00:11:47] Sunnie: Oh, wait. I misunderstood when you asked from numbers. Did you mean the pre-approval numbers or–

[00:11:53] Ramit: How much could you afford?

[00:11:54] Sunnie: Oh, oh, oh. I ran that by myself.

[00:11:56] Ramit: You did?

[00:11:57] Sunnie: Yes, using your book.

[00:11:57] Ramit: Oh my God. I’m going to have a heart attack right now. Listen, if I die on this podcast, to my team who’s monitoring it, just tell everybody I went well. It was a great time. If and when I prematurely die, I want to die discussing mortgage rates with a couple. That’s how I want to go.

[00:12:16] I don’t know why I’m looking upwards. I’m definitely going to hell one day. All right. Whatever. Okay, so you ran the numbers yourself using my book. I’m very proud of you. And what did those numbers tell you? How much could you afford?

[00:12:26] Sunnie: 4,000 a month. What I could afford for a home was 850.

[00:12:34] Ramit: $850,000?

[00:12:36] Sunnie: And that was the same the lender said.

[00:12:39] Ramit: How much is your income?

[00:12:40] Sunnie: So it’s 147, but I have my business stuff too.

[00:12:44] Ramit: So you make 147 a year and they told you you could pay 850 for a house? Okay. Attention all lenders in America. You [Bleep]. First of all, I have a couple of things to say. [Bleep] you. I’m talking to all the mortgage professionals in America, burdening young people, telling them they can spend, what is that, six times their income on a [Bleep] house.

[00:13:09] And what happens? You get your stupid goddamn commission and then you leave these young couples house poor. Hold on, I’m sweating over here. We’re less than 10 minutes into this conversation and I’m sweating. [Bleep]. Okay, so they told you 850. And did you agree with them?

[00:13:30] Sunnie: No.

[00:13:31] Ramit: Did you have a house price that you could afford before you went out looking at houses?

[00:13:39] Sunnie: Yeah. I just didn’t want to go over 35 a month.

[00:13:43] Ramit: Oh, okay. You did it by monthly payment. Did you have a house price, like nothing over 400k or whatever?

[00:13:49] Sunnie: No.

[00:13:50] Ramit: No.

[Narration]

[00:13:51] Ramit: I got to call [Bleep] here. Sunnie claims to have run the numbers using my method, but no, he didn’t. First off, don’t ask your realtor or your mortgage lender to run your calculations for you. What do you think they’re going to tell you? “Oh, it’s amazing. I ran these calculations, and magically, you can afford to buy a house. In fact, let me give you triple the amount you thought so that you are now indebted with years and years and decades of interest.”

[00:14:16] What a shock. I didn’t know my mortgage lender would say I could buy a house. So crazy. What’s her [Bleep] commission? Listen, you don’t ask the person at super cuts to do spinal surgery, and you never ask your realtor for financial advice. As a prospective homeowner, you want to look at TCO, the total cost of ownership.

[00:14:38] A lot of you have no idea that the house you’re buying for $300,000 is actually going to cost you over $600,000 when you add in all the costs. You have no idea because you never ran a single calculation. Oh, and also, what about accounting for repairs, furniture, maintenance, transaction costs and on and on and on?

[00:14:54] When these costs hit, and they will, it’s going to feel like you’re hemorrhaging money. I don’t like surprises with my money. The only kind of surprise I like is opening up a birthday card and getting a 20-dollar bill. Okay, that’s it. If I’m getting a surprise, it’s going to be on the upside, not the downside. This is how people trap themselves in a cycle of debt, especially when they are young.

[00:15:15] They buy too much house. They never ran a single calculation. And if anything, they ask their realtor or mortgage lender, “Hey, what do you think?” You need to be smarter than this. For the biggest purchase of your life, you should be fluent in how the numbers work. This is why I am always talking about home ownership in the US.

[00:15:36] It’s not just so that I get some freaks on Twitter liking my posts and retweeting it. The reason I talk about housing is that housing is the single biggest purchase you will ever make, and sometimes it’s not the best financial decision. All I’m asking is for you to really run the numbers to make sure that you can afford the housing that you might buy.

[Interview]

[00:16:01] Ramit: All right. So you went out shopping. You got the house. All right, fine. How’s the house?

[00:16:06] Jazmyne: It’s amazing.

[00:16:06] Sunnie: Nice.

[00:16:08] Ramit: All right. That’s cool. How does it feel now that you own a house?

[00:16:14] Sunnie: I feel good, but I am nervous.

[00:16:17] Ramit: What else do you feel?

[00:16:19] Sunnie: Excited. Really curious and anxious

[00:16:22] Ramit: Anxious. Okay. Anxious about what?

[00:16:26] Sunnie: Messing something up.

[00:16:28] Ramit: How about you, Jazmyne? How do you feel now that you are a homeowner?

[00:16:32] Jazmyne: I’m excited. I’m very eager to learn more about everything that comes with being a homeowner, and I’m interested to see how this is going to reflect our relationship. I feel like me and Sunnie, we have been very live-in-the-moment type of people for our first few years together.

[00:16:51] We just hit our one-year of marriage. I think life just came very quickly in this one year of marriage. Right now, it’s all cool. I think it might change once our bills start coming in and we see those numbers and we’ll see how each one of us react. 

[00:17:00] Sunnie: I understand where she’s coming from. I don’t get scared in that sense because it’s not like it’s our first time living together. We’ve had the same bills. The only bill that changes, it went from rent to mortgage.

[00:17:20] Ramit: You guys are paying the same amount for your total cost of ownership versus what you were paying to rent?

[00:17:27] Jazmyne: No, we’re paying more than what we was to rent.

[00:17:30] Ramit: Okay. Can you afford it?

[00:17:32] Sunnie: I’ll say yes. She’ll probably say no.

[00:17:34] Jazmyne: Can we afford it together? Yes.

[00:17:38] Ramit: You all are married. Is there any other way?

[00:17:40] Jazmyne: No, there is not. I think, my thing is I worry, God forbid, anything happens to him and his finances. Leaning back on me, we going to fall.

[00:17:50] Ramit: And what does that feel like to you?

[00:17:52] Jazmyne: Scary.

[00:17:54] Ramit: I’m going to go over the four key numbers in your CSP.

[00:17:58] Sunnie: Okay.

[00:17:59] Ramit: Fixed costs are at 71%. Investments are at zero, savings are at 11%. And guilt-free spending is at 18%. Let’s talk about fixed costs. What do you think about that number, 71%?

[00:18:13] Sunnie: It’s high.

[00:18:14] Ramit: Yeah. What should it be?

[00:18:15] Sunnie: Under 60.

[00:18:17] Ramit: 50 to 60 is typically where I like to see it. With an income like that, I like to see it at the lower end because that’s a high income for a young couple that typically does not have all the fixed expenses that an older couple might have. Investments are at zero. Why?

[00:18:32] Sunnie: I really never knew about investments. I knew people would say like, “Get into your 401(k), especially if your company matches.”

[00:18:39] Jazmyne: Never really had anyone explain it to me.

[00:18:41] Ramit: We are the products of who we were raised by and around, and it’s like if you don’t have people around you who are talking about 401(k)s, you’re probably not going to get a 401(k) for a long time. Of course, there’s YouTube and there’s my book at the library. Yes, there’s a lot of information out there. I agree it can be done. But I think we should also acknowledge that if you just didn’t grow up around anyone talking about it, probably not a factor of your reality. If you didn’t grow up learning how to negotiate your salary, probably not negotiating your salary. My dad had me opening up investment accounts at age 14.

[00:19:16] I was probably going to invest. That’s because that’s how I grew up. And so I think we need to acknowledge the advantages that we’re given are not given. They make a lasting impact. With that said, you two are a little too smart to not be investing. What do you think about that?

[00:19:32] Sunnie: I can agree.

[00:19:33] Ramit: The old “nobody told me”, while true, wears a little thin when you’re making $180,000, you own a house in your 20s, and you’re sophisticated enough to be listening to my podcast and reading all my stuff. It doesn’t really ring true. What do you say?

[00:19:47] Sunnie: I don’t know how to get started.

[00:19:50] Ramit: Hold on a second.

[00:19:53] Sunnie: No, I–

[00:19:55] Ramit: Let me pick from the multiple editions of my book. Chapter 3. What does this say on screen right here? What does that say? Read that out loud.

[00:20:05] Sunnie: Get ready to invest.

[00:20:06] Ramit: That’s I Will Teach You to Be Rich. The 10-year updated edition.

[00:20:10] Sunnie: All right. I guess I’m scared of doing something wrong and not being able to come back from it.

[00:20:16] Ramit: What might go wrong that you can’t come back from?

[00:20:19] Sunnie: I can’t lose my money in investing.

[00:20:21] Ramit: What else?

[00:20:23] Sunnie: I get so deep into it, I don’t know when to maybe stop and that I’m in a bigger hole than I need to be.

[00:20:32] Ramit: Meaning you put too much money in there, it almost feels like gambling?

[00:20:36] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:20:36] Ramit: What else? If you lost your money, what would it mean to you?

[00:20:40] Sunnie: I’m letting Jazmyne down.

[00:20:41] Ramit: Why is that? Because what is your role in this relationship?

[00:20:45] Sunnie: I’m the breadwinner.

[00:20:46] Ramit: What do you think, Jazmyne?

[00:20:47] Jazmyne: Yes, you are the breadwinner. You’re also the provider.

[00:20:51] Ramit: What does that mean?

[00:20:52] Jazmyne: He take care of the major finances, as in the mortgage, our car insurances, our phone bills. He buys a lot of stuff for the both of us. He pushes us to have a better future.

[00:21:08] Ramit: Okay. And Jazmyne, if Sunnie is the provider, what is your role?

[00:21:13] Jazmyne: I am the natural caretaker. I take care of the house. I take care of us and our self-care.

[00:21:23] Ramit: Okay.  All right. Let’s keep working down this CSP. I want to point out a couple of things. I see a big disparity in incomes. So on a monthly basis, Sunnie is earning 11,200 bucks. Jazmyne is earning 3,600 bucks, three and a half times more. Has that caused any conversations in your relationship?

[00:21:45] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:21:46] Sunnie: Yes. When we first started dating, I pushed her to figure out what she wanted to do. When we talk about income, I always say like, “I know that you could get a job making the same amount as me, if not more.”

[00:22:00] Ramit: How does that conversation go?

[00:22:02] Sunnie: At first it was hard because she would shut me out. I felt like she might have been feeling that I was trying to tell her what to do. But now it’s really good because she’s looking at going back to school and looking at different jobs and careers she would want to pursue.

[00:22:17] Ramit: Okay. Jazmyne, how about you? What kind of conversations have you had about the disparity in income?

[00:22:22] Jazmyne: Sunnie pushes me to be a better version of myself. I have moments where I do get comfortable. He pushed me into doing what I always thought I wanted to do, which was working with animals. So it was very exciting in the beginning. After being in it for a few years, though, I realized it’s not going to be enough money for me for the lifestyle that I want to live.

[00:22:45] Ramit: Ooh, what lifestyle is that?

[00:22:48] Jazmyne: I want to travel. I want to go shopping. I want to build memories. I want to start the family. I want to be a half stay-at-home wife.

[00:23:00] Ramit: What does that mean, half stay-at-home? What does that mean?

[00:23:03] Jazmyne: He has this vision of me being a stay-at-home wife. I don’t have anyone in my life that is a full-time stay-at-home to actually relate that to, so I just thought that was very boring. I don’t want to be at home all day with the kids cooking and cleaning. I do enjoy my job, but that passion I thought I once had is not there.

[00:23:25] So I’m stuck now on trying to figure out what I want to do. And it’s hard because he always tell me like, “Well, what are you good at? What’s your passion?” I can say I’m good at a lot of things, but to know what I want to do in life, I’m not passionate about anything right now.

[00:23:41] Ramit: You see the similarities between the conversations about what type of beach would you like and what are you good at?

[00:23:47] Jazmyne: No.

[00:23:48] Ramit: Okay. Jazmyne is saying no. Sunnie is nodding his head yes. Wow. This is interesting. Sunnie, what do you see?

[00:23:56] Sunnie: A lot of uncertainty.

[00:23:59] Jazmyne: I can agree with that.

[00:24:01] Ramit: What I see is Sunnie probably has some type of vision of his career, money, etc. You’re on this path, and it seems from what you’re telling me, maybe Jazmyne’s not. And you ask her questions like, “Hey, what beach? What yacht? What job? What are you passionate about?” And maybe that’s not how Jazmyne thinks. Jazmyne, it seems like you’re like, “Whoa, I don’t know. I know that I don’t want to do the vet thing, and I know that I don’t want to do this, but I don’t know.” Do you see the similarities in the two types of conversations?

[00:24:34] Sunnie: Yeah.

[Narration]

[00:24:34] Ramit: What Jazmyne’s doing right now is something that I see all the time. She’s not just confused. She’s avoiding. For a lot of us, when something feels uncomfortable or risky, we freeze. We say, “I’ll deal with it later. Or, “I just need to think about it. I need to figure it out.” But that’s not forward movement. That’s avoiding.

[00:24:53] Think about when you have done that in your life, maybe with a career decision. Oh, I don’t like my boss. I’m stuck. What am I supposed to do? I’ll freeze. I’ll wait. I need to figure things out. I’m in a bad relationship. I don’t know. I’m not happy, but once in a while, he or she takes me out to ice cream.

[00:25:10] It’s been that way for nine and a half years. I just need to see what happens. We all do this. And it often works because doing nothing or waiting often feels safer than making the wrong choice. The problem is when you avoid making decisions, you stay stuck.

[00:25:30] I have to say, one of the most frustrating things is having a friend who is in a bad situation. Could be career, financial, relational, and every time you see them, they’re talking about how bad it is, but they’re not actually making any changes. You know what I’m talking about if you’ve heard that friend.

[00:25:51] Now take a look inside. How many of us have done this with something in our own life? I have. I’m putting my hand up right now because I know I’ve done it. I’m probably doing it right now. We all have something in our lives where we have delayed equivocated, waited. With Jazmyne, I want to help her stop coasting and start making real progress. But first we need to figure out what’s really holding her back, and that is exactly where we are headed right after this break.

[Interview]

[00:26:22] Ramit: What do you think’s really going on when you have these conversations? What are you saying, Sunnie, that you’re not saying out loud?

[00:26:28] Sunnie: Sometimes I wish she would see herself how I see her, and she wouldn’t beat herself up so much to the point she doesn’t want to try anything. I can understand that not knowing what you want to do at times can be overwhelming, but I think that giving something a try will start to help just broaden that overwhelmness.

[00:26:53] Jazmyne: I don’t think it’s the overwhelmness of it. I do know I struggle with change, so starting over is pretty scary. But I get through it. I know that you can see the potential in me and everything. I see it too.

[00:27:07] But then I think of the ways that we came up. You had a lot of things given to you easily you are like, I know you can. It’s just harder for me because I didn’t have certain access in life to certain things like education and things like that versus how you did.

[00:27:25] And I feel like if you put yourself in my shoes and just know where I came from, it’s a little harder to just jump in and do it when you have no guide or anything. So I will say I have gotten better. And I’m not doing this just to shut you up either.

[00:27:42] I am doing it because now I am ready. But I feel like you want me to be ready when you want me to be ready. You’re speeding through life right now, and I’m just enjoying the moment. I just want to be alive and enjoy life.

[00:27:57] Ramit: Can I ask a little bit more about how you both grew up with money? Jazmyne, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

[00:28:05] Jazmyne: You can’t get that. I don’t have any money. Not now, maybe later.

[00:28:11] Ramit: What did they mean by that, “not now, maybe later”?

[00:28:14] Jazmyne: I think they just wanted me to shut up, honestly, but not tell me no completely in that moment.

[00:28:21] Ramit: And, how would you characterize your family socioeconomically? Were you middle class, upper middle class, lower middle class? How would you describe it?

[00:28:29] Jazmyne: Probably middle class, I would say.

[00:28:31] Ramit: Okay. And what happened as you got older when it came to money in your family?

[00:28:35] Jazmyne: My mother got a new husband, and he was more financially stable, at least outside looking in. He had money, so our family changed in a way in which we start wearing name brands.

[00:28:51] Ramit: Did you like that?

[00:28:52] Jazmyne: I did enjoy it. I feel like I got sucked into a lifestyle that I didn’t understand, nor didn’t really want.  

[00:29:00] Ramit: All right. So when you met Sunnie, how would you describe your relationship with money?

[00:29:04] Jazmyne: Money was coming and going for me, I was very wasteful of money.

[00:29:09] Ramit: Did you have the fine tastes?

[00:29:11] Jazmyne: I would say a yes a little bit.

[00:29:13] Ramit: Sunnie is nodding his head like it’s about to fall off right now. Sunnie, speak up.

[00:29:17] Sunnie: She likes to eat, and at that time we were going to some really nice places to feed her.

[00:29:23] Ramit: Like what? Give me an example of a meal that you might have.

[00:29:25] Jazmyne: Ribeye steak, a mac and cheese, a lot of drinks.

[00:29:30] Ramit: Okay, so how much would it cost?

[00:29:32] Jazmyne: $250.

[00:29:36] Ramit: All right. I totally don’t believe you. So we’re talking 350 at least?

[00:29:39] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:29:40] Ramit: Maybe more. Let’s just round up because I always prefer to be conservative on that. 400 bucks for a meal. Okay, fine. How often?

[00:29:46] Jazmyne: Once every other month. But a regular, say if we was going to Outbacks or something, we’ll probably spend about 200.

[00:29:56] Ramit: Okay. The way you just said it was like, “Oh, 400 was almost never. Every other month.” And then also, we’d go to Outback, which was 200 plus. Anyway, whatever. This is why we track a few key items. For most people, eating out is a highly variable and material expense. A lot of times people think they eat out two times a week. Whatever number they think, you can safely triple that number, and that is how much they actually eat out per week. Okay, so Jazmyne, you grew up like that.

[00:30:30] Sunnie, how about you? How’d you grow up with money? What do you remember your family saying about it when you were young?

[00:30:34] Sunnie: On one side it was like, “Ask your mom. You don’t need that. Not right now.” And then on the other side, it was like, “Yeah, put it in the cart.”

[00:30:44] Ramit: Who was telling you this?

[00:30:46] Sunnie: So my dad’s telling me the first one and my mom’s the second one.

[00:30:49] Ramit: Oh, your dad is saying no. And your mom is saying yes. Wow. Same pattern for your entire childhood?

[00:30:56] Sunnie: Oh, yeah. Even to this day.

[00:30:57] Ramit: Wow. How are they with money?

[00:31:01] Sunnie: I don’t know. My dad, he’s more frugal than my mom is. Her mindset is, make sure your savings is stacked. Don’t worry about nothing else.

[00:31:10] Ramit: Any similarities between the dynamic your parents had and the dynamic between Sunnie and Jazmyne?

[00:31:16] Sunnie: Sporadically, yes. At one moment I’ll be very frugal and not want to send anything. And then the next I’ll be like, “All right, babe. Let’s go to Walmart and spend $500. I don’t care.”

[00:31:26] Ramit: Sunnie, when you say like, “Want to go to Walmart?” What do you have in mind?

[00:31:31] Sunnie: Candy.

[00:31:32] Ramit: Candy. Which candy?

[00:31:34] Sunnie: Kit Kat and Skittles.

[00:31:36] Ramit:  All right. Skittles are good. I’ll give you that. That’s pretty good actually. I feel like no one eats Skittles these days anymore.  All right. Considering that, Sunnie, you make three and a half times more than Jazmyne, Jazmyne, do you ever have to ask Sunnie for money?

[00:31:51] Jazmyne: Ooh, yes. Recently I have.

[00:31:54] Ramit: And how do you feel asking for money?

[00:31:57] Jazmyne: I hate it with a passion.

[00:31:58] Ramit: Why?

[00:31:59] Jazmyne: Because growing up, every time I’ve ever asked for anything, I was told no. So I don’t like to be rejected. And when it comes to money, I was used to asking my parents for money. I’m not used to asking my husband for money, but it’s like trying to understand like, we’re married, so it’s our money. So it’s just getting used to.

[00:32:24] Ramit: What’s a time in the last, I don’t know, three, six months where you called him and you asked for money? What was it for?

[00:32:30] Jazmyne: It was just yesterday for our dog food. I said, “Can I use your card to pay for Ghost’s food? Because I don’t get paid till Friday and he’s running really low.”

[00:32:42] Ramit: Okay. So what’d he say?

[00:32:43] Jazmyne: He said yes.

[00:32:45] Ramit: Any bad feelings about asking him for his card?

[00:32:47] Jazmyne: No. Not when it comes to our pets. This is our dog and our cat.

[00:32:55] Ramit: What’s the other example?

[00:32:56] Jazmyne: Last month, I was a little depressed. He was like, “What are you depressed about?” I said, “I need my hair done.” He was like, “Why don’t you just ask me to pay to get your hair done?” I’m like, “Because that’s something that I’ve always paid for my hair to get done. I’ve always paid for my nails to get done.” Sometimes it just feels good taking care of myself, and I think it’s me knowing how much he pays for already. The little things, I feel like, “All right, Jaz, you can do that.”

[00:33:28] Ramit: You don’t ask.

[00:33:29] Jazmyne: Yeah.

[00:33:30] Ramit: As a married couple, are your finances combined or not?

[00:33:34] Sunnie: They’re not  combined.

[00:33:35] Jazmyne: They’re not combined.

[00:33:36] Ramit: Okay. How come?

[00:33:37] Sunnie: She’s waiting on me to take the lead to do it. And I haven’t done it because at first, I didn’t know how. And then also waiting to get into the house. I was waiting for that. So now that we’re in the house, I want to take those steps to combine the income.

[00:33:53] Ramit:  All right. It’s just a matter of just now that you got the house, you’re going to do it.

[00:33:56] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:33:57] Ramit: Sunnie, any reservations about the way that Jazmyne treats money?

[00:34:02] Sunnie: A little bit. Only really when she wants to put stuff on the payment plan.

[00:34:07] Ramit: Like what?

[00:34:08] Sunnie: Anything.

[00:34:10] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? The only I put on a payment plan would be a house, maybe a car. What do you mean?

[00:34:15] Sunnie: So in the house, we need the living room, the dining room set, washer and dryer. And she’s like, “We can get it. We put on a payment plan.” And I’m like, “Let’s save.” So we waited. We’re doing room by one room. But the washer and dryer was the most recent thing and she’s like, “I need my washer and dryer as soon as we move in.” And I’m like, “Well, we can go wash at my mom’s house or my sister’s house.”

[00:34:38] Ramit: Do you have a washer and dryer right now?

[00:34:39] Sunnie: No, no.

[00:34:40] Jazmyne: No.

[00:34:41] Ramit:  All right. When are you going to get it?

[00:34:42] Sunnie: Actually, this week.

[00:34:43] Ramit: Oh, okay. And how are you going to pay for it?

[00:34:45] Sunnie: We got taxes back.

[00:34:47] Ramit: How much?

[00:34:48] Sunnie: 4,900 and something.

[00:34:52] Ramit: And how much is your washer dryer going to cost?

[00:34:54] Jazmyne: About from 12 to 1,600.

[00:34:59] Ramit: Okay. What are you going to do with the rest of the money?

[00:35:01] Sunnie: 1,000 is going into our savings, 1,000 is going back to my business, and then we’re going to split the remaining for guilt-free.

[00:35:08] Ramit:  All right. I think I’m understanding better what’s going on. Can we talk debt? So you have $579,000 of debt. Can you break that down for me?

[00:35:17] Sunnie: Yeah. The house is 519. My car is 3k. I have 300 to 400 of credit card debt. And then I have 17k in student loans.

[00:35:28] Ramit: Okay, fine. Jazmyne, any debt from you?

[00:35:30] Jazmyne: My car loan was about 17,500. My credit card debt about 12k. My teeth 6k. Cosmetology school, 2,500.

[00:35:41] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:41] Jazmyne: That’s all for me.

[00:35:43] Ramit: Basically 60k of debt, approximately.

[00:35:45] Sunnie: That sounds right. Yeah.

[00:35:46] Ramit: When’s the debt going to be paid off?

[00:35:49] Sunnie: We put a goal by 30.

[00:35:50] Ramit: Okay. Wait, that’s pretty soon. Right?

[00:35:53] Sunnie: Well, everything but the house, obviously.

[00:35:55] Ramit: Okay. How are you going to do that?

[00:35:58] Sunnie: This is where conversations get tricky. So I have a plan, and the plan goes back to pushing Jazmyne into figuring out what she wants to do, which could lead to more income.

[00:36:09] Ramit: Okay.

[00:36:09] Sunnie: And then I have a plan for myself and my business, where my business is bringing in more income, and also getting a raise at my job.

[00:36:17] Ramit: Okay. Jazmyne, what do you think?

[00:36:18] Jazmyne: I think realistically for me is paying off that debt at least within the next five years, not just two years. I do see myself getting a larger income with a new job, but as of right now where I’m at, that’s not going to come tomorrow, so I like to give myself some leeway.

[00:36:39] Ramit: You find giving yourself leeway a lot.

[00:36:42] Jazmyne: Yeah, I do. Maybe because I’m scared, scared of the disappointment.

[00:36:48] Ramit: Yes. I think that’s true. What else?

[00:36:50] Jazmyne: Because things happen in the world and that’s okay. It’ll happen when it happens.

[00:36:56] Ramit: There’s a bit of a lack of agency. Like, the world is going to happen, and I don’t want to set too ambitious of a goal because if I don’t hit it, then I might be disappointed. Jazmyne, am I translating this correctly?

[00:37:08] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:37:09] Ramit: Honestly, if that is the approach, then I’m not going to change you. But you told me a little while ago that you have an ambitious goal for life. You want to travel. You want to have a family. You want to do this part-time stay at home thing. Can’t live that life if you don’t have agency and control. So what would you like to do?

[00:37:25] Jazmyne: I would like to set myself up for that life that I want, that I want for the both of us, that we both want.

[00:37:33] Ramit: How come you haven’t done it already?

[00:37:35] Jazmyne: I think I just get distracted with everything else that’s going on. I get comfortable. I have my moments where I hate my job, moments where I love it, and then moments where Sunnie is providing a lot. I guess I’m just scared to start something and not finish it, because I have a history of starting stuff and not finishing it.

[00:37:55] Ramit: Better not start it at all then, huh?

[00:37:57] Jazmyne: Yeah.

[00:37:58] Ramit: I say that a little sarcastically, but I don’t think you took it sarcastically.

[00:38:02] Jazmyne: I didn’t.

[00:38:03] Ramit: The point when I talk about money is not to simply make myself feel better. The point is, what do I want in my  Rich Life. And then what am I willing to do to get there? You guys know what you want for your  Rich Life. The house the big one, right?

[00:38:18] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:38:19] Ramit: How will that house affect your finances?

[00:38:21] Sunnie: I think the first couple months for me getting used to all the new payments will be a little rocky.

[00:38:27] Ramit: How much did you use to pay for rent?

[00:38:29] Sunnie: 21.

[00:38:32] Ramit: 21. And you’re paying at least 3,500 a month? Probably more like 5,000 a month when we include the new furniture and appliances and all kinds of maintenance and spread that out. So you basically doubled your expenses on housing. Would you agree?

[00:38:48] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:38:48] Ramit: Did you guys double your income?

[00:38:50] Sunnie: No.

[00:38:51] Jazmyne: No.

[00:38:52] Ramit: Did you cut your expenses in half?

[00:38:54] Sunnie: I’m going to have to.

[00:38:56] Ramit: Oh, you are going to have to, or both of you are going to have to.

[00:38:59] Sunnie: Oh, we are going to have to.

[00:39:01] Ramit: Oh, where’d that come from, I?

[00:39:03] Sunnie: I’m just so used to just paying everything.

[00:39:07] Ramit: Sunnie, do you see how in part that is contributing to this dynamic that’s happening with money?

[00:39:12] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:39:12] Ramit: What do you see?

[00:39:13] Sunnie: I’ll take more of the conversation when it gets to the money of actual bill paying stuff.

[00:39:20] Ramit: Mm-hmm. What else?

[00:39:21] Sunnie: She gets quiet.

[00:39:24] Ramit: And you don’t want her to be quiet or uncomfortable, so I’ll take care of it. It’s fine.

[00:39:27] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:39:28] Ramit: Then once in a while you send mixed messages. Let’s go to Walmart and get a bunch candy and stuff, which implies that you have a ton of extra discretionary money. But you don’t. And also, Jazmyne, I noticed that you said like, “Hey, two years is maybe too strict. Maybe five is better.”

[00:39:44] Now, listen, I don’t mind if you came to me, Jazmyne, and said, “I can’t do it in two, but I ran the calculations and I can do it in five years. Here’s the exact plan I have for five years.” I don’t mind that. I really don’t. But I don’t think you have that plan. I think you basically just kicked the can down the road. The same way your parents didn’t want to tell you no, what’d they say?

[00:40:04] Jazmyne: Maybe later.

[00:40:05] Ramit: Is that not exactly what you just said to me?

[00:40:08] Jazmyne: Yeah.

[00:40:08] Ramit: It doesn’t feel good to be the recipient of that. You might as well have preferred your parents just say, “No, we’re not getting those chips.” At least I know. Just be honest with me. But you’re not even being honest with me. You’re not even being honest with yourself. So you guys want to go through the numbers and really take a look at this?

[00:40:25] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:40:26] Jazmyne: Sure.

[00:40:27] Ramit: Okay. If you make no changes today, what will happen?

[00:40:31] Sunnie: We’re not going to be able to really do what we want.

[00:40:33] Jazmyne: We’re not going to be able to expand our family because that’s the next big goal that we want to do.

[00:40:39] Sunnie: Yeah. And travel as much as we want to.

[00:40:42] Ramit: What travel? You have $3,000 in savings. You have two weeks of emergency fund. There’s no traveling. What I’m trying to do is to show you guys that if we want to play at this level when it comes to money, we have to really take it seriously. I don’t mind that you spend money eating out. That’s fine. But you make $180,000 a year. Is this it? You’re going to be living like this for the next 30 years? You guys want more than that, right?

[00:41:07] Jazmyne: Mm-hmm.

[00:41:07] Sunnie: Yes.

[00:41:09] Ramit:  All right. Let’s break it down. Right now your fixed costs are at 71%. Your housing is 36%. You know what that number should ideally be?

[00:41:19] Sunnie: No.

[00:41:20] Ramit: 28% or less. So that means your housing is expensive relative to your income. Now that’s what I mean by running your numbers. Had you run the numbers before, you would’ve known that. Now, we can’t change it. You got the house. But what that means is that the rest of your expenses, you’re going to have less money to spend. So let’s take a quick look here. Debt payments at 1,288.  All right. So Jazmyne, when will your debt be paid off? Do you know?

[00:41:47] Jazmyne: It would be within the year.

[00:41:50] Ramit: What about the rest?

[00:41:51] Jazmyne: The rest is mostly my automatic credit card bills. I’m not quite sure.

[00:41:55] Sunnie: I think because we never really looked at it in this way. We looked at it when we filled out the spreadsheet. We were surprised. We were shocked.

[00:42:04] Ramit: What’d you do about it?

[00:42:05] Sunnie: We did start looking at car insurance and how to make that cheaper.

[00:42:09] Ramit: Did you change it?

[00:42:10] Sunnie: We’re in the process of changing it.

[00:42:12] Ramit: How much are you going to save?

[00:42:14] Sunnie: $115.

[00:42:16] Ramit: Per month?

[00:42:17] Sunnie: Per month.

[00:42:18] Jazmyne: Per month.

[00:42:19] Ramit: Oh, that’s good. Okay. [Bleep]. Take the win. Good job. I’m impressed. Okay, that’s good. What else did you do?

[00:42:25] Sunnie: I figured out how I can pay my car off by July.

[00:42:29] Ramit: Okay. How’s that?

[00:42:31] Sunnie: So I’m getting a client that will be paying me a big chunk. So I’m going to use the money that I would essentially use as my paycheck for my business to pay my car off.

[00:42:40] Ramit:   All right, fine. Jazmyne, what about you?

[00:42:43] Jazmyne: I haven’t did anything besides apply to college, which I feel like I’m applying to more debt. But in order to get to where I want to be, I have to take a step somewhere.

[00:42:56] Ramit: Okay. So you have to take a step. I agree. You can’t be stuck. Taking a step is a good thing. Are you taking the right step? That’s the question.

[00:43:02] Jazmyne: The only step I know as of right now. Yes.

[00:43:06] Ramit: Not knowing doesn’t cut it anymore. If you don’t know the answer is to find out. What would you do to find out your options? Because just going to community college is one option. It could be a very fine option, but there’s probably 10 other options. How would you find out what they are?

[00:43:23] Jazmyne: I have a pretty strong village, so my mother-in-law and my sister-in-law and Sunnie, they all have great educational backgrounds. My sister-in-law, she is actually in school right now to get her doctorate.

[00:43:36] Ramit: Love it. What would you ask them?

[00:43:38] Jazmyne: I have asked them which route would they take? For example, my sister, she’s like, “What is it you want to do?” I’m like, “I don’t know what I want to do.”

[00:43:47] Ramit: Let me stop you right there. Can’t ask a question like that. I’m sure they gave you pretty unsatisfying answers. You could do this. You could do that. Start here. Try that. That’s what they said to you?

[00:43:57] Jazmyne: Yeah.

[00:43:57] Ramit: Because you ask a bad question, you get a bad answer. If you said to your relative, who’s getting a doctorate, should I get a PhD? Break down three pros and three cons. She would break it down for you right there. Give you a very specific answer. Amazing answer. In order to ask these questions, you got to do a little bit of the research yourself. I can show you how, but what I suspect is going on is you’re– imagine you’re in a pool. You know one of those pools you get in a little inner tube, and you float down the little river?

[00:44:24] Sunnie: The lazy river.

[00:44:24] Ramit: The lazy river. You Just sit there. All right. Take me where you will. It seems like that, the way you’re talking about your career. I don’t know. Where should I go? I’ll ask a couple of people, “Hey, what should I do? I don’t know what to do. What do you think?” And it stops working in your late 20s. But this is life and the type of life you’ve told me you want to lead.

[00:44:43] You want a family. You want to travel. You all said you wanted to own a house. You can’t do that by floating. This is one where you actually have to pick a direction and start swimming. So what does that look like?

[00:44:56] It looks like you probably going on LinkedIn and looking at people’s careers. It looks at you probably buying some books about different career options, looking online, and saying, “Hey, I don’t even know where to start. How do I pick a career that makes sense to me?” Probably setting up some informational interviews with people.

[00:45:10] “Hey, I’m new to this. I’ve been doing vet tech work for the last five years. I’m not really feeling it. Here are the things I’m interested in. Here’s what I’m not, but I’m not sure I’m open to it. What would you suggest? And give me three more people to talk to. Jazmyne, have you ever done those things?

[00:45:22] Jazmyne: No.

[00:45:23] Ramit: Why?

[00:45:24] Jazmyne: I never knew how, so therefore I never did.

[00:45:28] Ramit: What would be a different way to say that? A more, I’m taking control of my life way.

[00:45:33] Jazmyne: I don’t know how, but I would do my research and find out.

[00:45:38] Ramit: [Bleep] yeah. That’s what I’m talking about. That goes for everything. I didn’t know how to drive, but I found out. I didn’t know how to cook this meal, and I found out. I didn’t know how to find the love of my life, but I found out. We all take control of our life in some degree or another. I have found it’s a lot more fun to pick a direction and start swimming.

[00:46:02] And Sunnie, I have found also, if you are the partner of that person, sometimes you think you’re helping by saving them, but actually, it’s not always helping. Can I pause, Jazmyne? I’m not sure if I see you crying over there. I just want to check in with you. What’s going on?

[00:46:17] Jazmyne: So this is just something that we’ve talked about, my life, a lot, and why I don’t do certain things. It is just hard when other people can see your potential, but you can’t see your own.

[00:46:32] Ramit: Yeah, I agree. How do you react to that?

[00:46:35] Jazmyne: I cry, then I just sit back and analyze it from outside looking in.

[00:46:41] Ramit: You beat yourself up?

[00:46:42] Jazmyne: At times, yeah.

[00:46:44] Ramit: What do you say to yourself?

[00:46:45] Jazmyne: I don’t know why Sunnie chose me out of everyone.

[00:46:48] Ramit: And then Sunnie reassures you, “I love you, babe. I’m here for you. I know you have the potential.

[00:47:50] Jazmyne: He does. Then I’d be like, “What if I never do though? Then what?”

[00:47:55] Ramit: You talk to a therapist, right?

[00:47:57] Jazmyne: I do.

[00:47:58] Ramit: Does that help?

[00:47:59] Jazmyne: So far it’s been helping.

[00:48:02] Ramit: Okay, good. I’m glad to hear that.

[Narration]

[00:48:04] Ramit: That was a big moment for Jazmyne. She’s starting to realize she’s been giving herself too much room to coast. I find this conversation extremely fascinating because sometimes I talk to people who are too hard on themselves. They say things like, “I’m not good at math. I’ll never have enough. I don’t work hard enough.” And they beat themselves up.

[00:48:24] But sometimes I talk to people who are too easy on themselves. Deep down, I think a lot of times we have never met someone who truly pushes themselves. My secret wish is that every single person who wants to make a major change in their life, whether it’s changing their finances, their body, their relationship, I wish they could go live with someone who is really good at that and just observe how they live for one week.

[00:48:56] Can you imagine? There was this article I read, I’ll never forget, in the New York Times, about this male model and what he does on his Saturdays off. And the guy looks incredible. He’s ripped. He’s a model. And you look at this picture, you go, “Oh, genetics.” And then on his Saturday, which is his off day from training, he still walks five miles.

[00:49:19] He’s still going for a little casual jog. He’s doing this. He’s doing that. He’s seeing friends. And I’m reading this. I’m exhausted just reading it, and I’m going, “Oh, that actually explains so much.” Because there are clues. If someone’s really good at money, they’re probably talking about money.

[00:49:38] If someone is really good at fitness or health, they’re probably doing certain things that allow them to look good and feel good. And the same is true with money. And the same is true here. These changes aren’t always easy. In fact, in my experience, the most important moments in life are hard.

[00:49:59] Getting into college was hard. Finding a great job was hard. Defining my  Rich Life and automating my investments was hard. Meeting my wife was hard, but it was worth it. If you never really push yourself, if you never meet someone who pushes themselves, and you get genuinely curious, how do you do that? What do you do next? Tell me everything. I want to know the truth. Then you often don’t know what it takes to be successful.

[00:50:23] And oftentimes you end up playing it safe. Playing safe means playing small for a lot of people. We see that here with Jazmyne. That pattern looks like avoidance because deep down, she’s afraid of failing. Now, listen, I don’t think she needs to make six figures. I don’t think that is the definition of success. But right now, her actions don’t match the life that she says she wants. So the question I have is, can she shift her mindset and start taking real steps towards that vision? We’re about to find out.

[Interview]

[00:50:55] Ramit: Let me just say a couple of observations. First of all, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either of you. You both look at the world a little differently. Fair to say?

[00:51:04] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:51:04] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:51:05] Ramit: Do you think that you can look at the world differently and still live a  Rich Life together?

[00:51:10] Jazmyne: I think it’s possible.

[00:51:12] Sunnie: I think it’s possible if we understand each other, the way we look at the world.

[00:51:17] Ramit: Do you understand each other?

[00:51:19] Sunnie: Overall, yeah, I think we do.

[00:51:21] Ramit: Do you understand yourself, Jazmyne?

[00:51:23] Jazmyne: I do.

[00:51:24] Ramit: Why have you set these goals, this life that you want to live with Sunnie, but the money part hasn’t matched up to it? When I look at the numbers, Jazmyne, your fixed costs are at 89%. You’re essentially spending more than you make every month. How do you reconcile those two?

[00:51:42] Jazmyne: I bank it on Sunnie being able to pick up all the finances of it. I’ve gotten so comfortable with Sunnie taking care of a lot of things financially.

[00:51:54] Ramit: So I have to ask the question, how much of what we are talking about in terms of your financial arrangement is you rescuing Jazmyne? Jazmyne, what do you think?

[00:52:05] Jazmyne: I think it’s more than what he thinks. Without your finances, I would definitely say I wouldn’t be where I am today. You do a lot for me. You buy me stuff. You feed me, make sure I can do my Pilates and stuff.

[00:52:16] Ramit: Do you need to be rescued, Jazmyne?

[00:52:19] Jazmyne: Financially, emotionally, yes.

[00:52:22] Ramit: Rescued or supported?

[00:52:24] Jazmyne: Mm. When you word it like that, supported.

[00:52:27] Ramit: Yeah. To me, a child needs to be rescued. They don’t have agency. They don’t have control over the world in a way that an adult does. And adult, we all need support in different ways, but I see rescue and support as very different things.

[00:52:43] Jazmyne: Yeah, I agree.

[00:52:45] Ramit: Can I be pretty direct with you, guys? You guys are spending a lot of money. You have no investments and no plan to invest. You have very little savings. I don’t believe some of the numbers on the conscious spending plan. You’re in your late 20s. You have a chance to really set some amazing foundations going forward, taking advantage of time, and letting money grow and be invested and compound.

[00:53:10] But right now you’re spending 71% of your money on fixed costs. That’s too high. Your job is to get this number down. Get it down to 60%. Your investments are at zero. That’s not how you grow and start to let your money work for you. Your savings are at $1,100, which is good. That’s 11%.

[00:53:29] But I noticed it’s only been there for three months, pretty much around the time where you thought you’re going to talk to me. It’s good. But let me put it bluntly. Sunnie, if you lose your job or your business goes down, or something happens, y’all run out of money in a matter of weeks.

[00:53:42] And then we have the guilt-free spending, which if you tell me this is the accurate number, okay. I suspect it’s higher than that, a lot higher. What do you guys think of my assessment?

[00:53:50] Jazmyne: Pretty accurate.

[00:53:51] Sunnie: I think it’s pretty accurate.

[00:53:54] Ramit: Which of you read my book?

[00:53:55] Sunnie: I did.

[00:53:56] Ramit: You read the book, Sunnie, but you didn’t set up investments. Why?

[00:54:00] Sunnie: When I read the book, it was about a month and a half before moving, and I read it with the intention to implement it after we were in the house.

[00:54:09] Ramit: Okay, so you’re ready.

[00:54:11] Sunnie: Yeah.

[00:54:11] Ramit:  All right. Here’s what we’re going to do. I want you two to take control, especially Jazmyne. The way I look at it is, if you’re in a relationship, if you’re married, you need partnership with money. Partnership does not mean one person does everything. I don’t care if you earn more, Sunnie. That’s fine.

[00:54:24] But right now you’re the one bringing up these questions, and it feels like you’re pulling teeth from Jazmyne. And Jazmyne is leaning back, figuratively and literally. And it’s not the dynamic where the two of you are like, “This is our goal. Now let’s together.” It’s actually like the two of you are dancing around topics and not really being honest with each other.

[00:54:43] If I were you, Sunnie, it would drive me insane that my wife has $12,000 of credit card debt with no real plan to pay it off. I’m not okay with that. But I don’t think you’ve actually said that. I haven’t heard you say anything, like, “Hey, this actually isn’t okay with me.”

[00:54:57] Sunnie: I think she says it more to me than I do to her.

[00:54:59] Ramit: What do you say that about, Jazmyne?

[00:55:00] Jazmyne: For example, before we got this house, we did talk about paying off debt first. And it just confused me when we started to look for houses that I felt like was out of our range.

[00:55:14] Ramit: In all this time, did you run numbers? Did you look at numbers?

[00:55:17] Jazmyne: No.

[00:55:18] Sunnie: No.

[00:55:19] Ramit: I’m going to be really direct with you guys. You’re not taking this stuff seriously. You just made the biggest purchase of your life. You did not look at a number on a computer screen. And now you have some tough decisions to make because you bought a house without looking at how it would affect the rest of your finances.

[00:55:34] That’s life. That’s consequences. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or bad people. It means you didn’t go into this eyes wide open, actually running some calculations. And now you’re going to have to make some pretty serious changes to your lifestyle as a result. Are you guys ready for that?

[00:55:48] Jazmyne: Yeah.

[00:55:49] Sunnie: I am. Yeah, we are.

[00:55:51] Ramit: You’re in control. Your job is to get your fixed cost down to 60%.

[00:55:56] Sunnie: Baby, you’re taking control. You’re the lead. I’m following.

[00:55:59] Jazmyne: Okay. We’ve talked about this before. I don’t think we need two cars. You work from home, and I drive to work. I guess we can see which one. Figure it out.

[00:56:10] Ramit: Let’s not figure it out. Let’s make a decision. This is the easiest decision you’re going to have to make tonight.

[00:56:15] Jazmyne: It’s hard because I’m not understanding the numbers.

[00:56:18] Ramit: Jazmyne, from now on, if you don’t understand anything about your money, that’s totally fine. Some of this stuff nobody taught us, but the answer is you got to find the answer. From now on, as a 27-year-old, that’s it. In this relationship, each of you have to find out a way to get the answer. So go ahead, tell me the numbers. We’ll figure it out right now.

[00:56:36] Jazmyne: My car, the total loan is $17,000.

[00:56:42] Ramit: Okay.

[00:56:42] Jazmyne: Sunnie, how much do you have left on your car to pay off?

[00:56:46] Sunnie: Let’s say 35. I don’t know what the exact number is. 288 a month.

[00:56:50] Ramit: If we just look at the numbers that are really simple here, you owe 17,000. He owes 3,500. There’s basically no way that you are going to get more than he is. So knowing those numbers, what does that suggest to you?

[00:57:06] Jazmyne: To sell his car so that we can at least be out of one sooner than later.

[00:57:12] Ramit: I agree. Let’s take a look at what would happen if we did that. So let’s take 288 and make it zero. Fair?

[00:57:19] Jazmyne: Yes.

[00:57:19] Ramit:  All right. So watch what happens to this number right here, this fixed cost number. Watch this. From 71%, what number is it?

[00:57:27] Jazmyne: 68.

[00:57:28] Ramit: What do you think about that?

[00:57:29] Jazmyne: It’s better than 71.

[00:57:31] Ramit: Yeah, it’s going the right direction. I agree. Take a round of applause. Good job. It’s going in the right direction. We’re trying to get this down to 60%. What’s next?

[00:57:38] Jazmyne: My debt payments.

[00:57:40] Ramit: Can you pay it all off?

[00:57:41] Jazmyne: I cannot.

[00:57:42] Ramit: So what do you want to do?

[00:57:43] Jazmyne: I’m not sure.

[00:57:44] Ramit: Okay. What’s next? If you can’t tackle debt, what else is available?

[00:57:48] Jazmyne: There’s groceries.

[00:57:50] Ramit: Mm-hmm.

[00:57:50] Jazmyne: The subscriptions. We can definitely cut some of that.

[00:57:54] Ramit: Some.

[00:57:55] Jazmyne: A lot of it. The thing is, I don’t know where all the subscriptions come from, honestly. I can look at my bank statement and it’d be like Apple just took out $2 and 99 cents. Apple took out $7 and 49 cents. Apple took out 15.99.

[00:58:17] Ramit: Jazmyne, do you see what’s going on here? I call this the innocent doe. The innocent doe goes, ” I don’t know what’s happening. I have no idea. What happened with this debt? I don’t know where the subscriptions are going.” Men and women can both be innocent does, and they absolve themselves of all responsibility.

[00:58:35] Like right now you’re saying, “$400 in subscriptions, I just have no idea.” Well, Jazmyne, how would you figure it out? If I can be really honest with you, this is the easiest thing to solve. I know you can. Why do you think you have not?

[00:58:50] Jazmyne: So I never really just sat down. [Inaudible]. I just never did.

[00:58:54] Ramit: Can I ask you guys an honest question right now? Because I feel a little frustrated. Do you guys want to make a change? Because now I feel like I’m trying to make a change more than you both are. And it’s actually not respectful of my time.

[00:59:06] Sunnie: I really do want to make change. I want to cut a lot of the stuff off and figure it out, but I understand also what you’ve been saying the whole time of allowing her to take the initiative and take some lead on this. But I get frustrated sometimes because I feel like when I try to do that, nothing gets done. So I just do it.

[00:59:26] Ramit: Have you told her that?

[00:59:27] Sunnie: Yes.

[00:59:28] Ramit: What are the stakes here?

[00:59:30] Sunnie: Our finances, the way we live our life, everything that she enjoys and likes to do.

[00:59:35] Ramit: Let’s fast forward a few years. Let’s say you have kids. You all talked about that, right? All right, so Jazmyne, you mentioned you’re the natural caretaker. Potentially, you want to be home with the kids at least part-time. And let’s say you ask Sunnie, “Hey, I’d really like for you to take the kids to the park or pick up around the house.” And he just doesn’t do it. And then you ask him like, “Hey, I really want you to do it. This is so frustrating. Why don’t you do it?” And he just doesn’t do it. How would you feel about that?

[00:59:59] Jazmyne: I’ll get annoyed and irritated and then just do it myself. Yeah. And just learn to live with it.

[01:00:05] Ramit: Did you ever see this when you were growing up?

[01:00:07] Jazmyne: Yeah.

[01:00:08] Ramit: Was it ever resolved or swept under the rug?

[01:00:09] Jazmyne: Yeah, pushed off.

[01:00:13] Ramit: Can I just tell you right now, there’s no [Bleep] way I’m going to allow myself or my partner to be in a relationship where we’re just like, “Oh [Bleep]?” And then we just brush it under the rug for the next 50 years.

[Narration]

[01:00:26] Ramit: From the outside, it looks like Sunnie’s got everything under control. He’s asking questions. He’s running the numbers. He’s trying to move things forward. But I think what might be also happening here is that he’s the enabler. He’s trying to rescue this relationship by doing it all by himself. And Jazmyne is playing the role of the innocent doe. Who? Me? Little old me? I just don’t know.

[01:00:50] Non-maliciously, but because it feels safer to check out, to delegate, then to get it wrong. This is a very common dynamic I see. One person takes over. The other becomes passive. Now they’ve established a new dynamic, which means they never actually deal with the real issue.

[01:01:08] In a healthy relationship, both partners have to be involved with money. That’s why I say partners, not parent-child or active-inactive partners, teammates. They’re both involved, though they may be playing different positions. Now, listen, I don’t do this a lot, but sometimes when I’m speaking to a couple, I just get really direct and tell them what I would do. I think I need to get that direct right now.

[Interview]

[01:01:33] Ramit: Can I just tell you guys what I would say right now if I were in your situation? If I were Sunnie, I might say something like, “I know that I like thinking about money. I like talking about it, and I know you’re not as comfortable with it. And sometimes I think I push you and you retreat, and I apologize. I don’t want to do that.

[01:01:46] “At the same time, I need a partner with money. I can’t do this alone. And I know that in the past you have said, ‘I don’t know.’ It drives me crazy. It’s okay not to know, but I need you to find out the answers to it. You’re smart. You’re capable. And at this point, I can’t do this alone, and I can’t create the future that we want on my own. I need you to do it with me.” Sunnie, you ever said something like that?

[01:02:11] Sunnie: Yeah.

[01:02:12] Ramit: All right. And then what happened?

[01:02:14] Sunnie: It has been multiple conversations of that same scenario. And I think we’re taking strides to it, but I feel like we also need to be okay with hurting each other’s feelings.

[01:02:25] Ramit: Forget about hurting feelings. I haven’t heard either of you be really direct once today, not even close. Sunnie, are you willing to go the next 50 years of your life like this?

[01:02:33] Sunnie: No, I’m not, but my solution is always just to make more money.

[01:02:38] Ramit: Oh, I’ve heard that one before. And does it work?

[01:02:40] Sunnie: For the moment.

[01:02:42] Ramit: Okay. And what about one day when you get sick or you have two or three kids, or your expenses go way up? You’re just going to keep grinding?

[01:02:48] Sunnie: I don’t want to because I want to also be able to be there and be around.

[01:02:53] Ramit: No, can’t do it all.

[01:02:54] Sunnie: Yeah. So that’s why I need her to make a change in some sense to help so that I can be there.

[01:02:59] Ramit: It’s not hurting feelings to be direct. It’s not hurting feelings to say what you want in a relationship. We’re simply saying like, “This is what I need in a relationship. This is my vision. What about you? Maybe our visions are different. Let’s find out.” But somebody take the first step. Jazmyne, what about you? Have you been direct?

[01:03:16] Jazmyne: I would say yes, I have been direct. I’m grateful for the home, don’t get me wrong. Grateful for it. But I would’ve been grateful for a Whoopty doo to start off with because this is a big purchase and he’s always like, “Baby, we got it. I got it.”

[01:03:36] I asked him 100 times in this process, “You sure you have it? You sure you can’t afford it?” And I used the word you because I know what I bring to the table. I know I cannot afford this without you. And I told him that, and he just made it clear to me and made me feel comfortable, like, “No, babe, I got it. I will.” So I was like, “Okay.”

[01:04:01] Ramit: So Sunnie, what is that you? I’ll throw your numbers up right here. You definitely don’t got it. Look at this. If I take away her income, you want to see what happens? 94% fixed costs if her income goes away. You definitely do not got it. How did you make that claim to her?

[01:04:18] Sunnie: Well, I guess when I said like I got it, it was more focusing on the bigger bills?

[01:04:24] Ramit: What’s a bigger bill than your mortgage?

[01:04:26] Sunnie: Yeah, right.

[01:04:26] Ramit: I feel like we’re actually getting honest for the first time. What happened with the purchase of the house?

[01:04:34] Sunnie: I thought that I would be able to handle everything.

[01:04:37] Ramit: Because you are the, what?

[01:04:39] Sunnie: Provider.

[01:04:40] Ramit: The provider. The provider loves to take more and more weight onto their shoulder. But they never stopped to realize, maybe I actually don’t need to take all that weight on my shoulder. Maybe I need to actually just improve the way I communicate with my partner. Jazmyne’s over here saying, “I don’t need this big old house. Why don’t we talk about it?”

[01:04:57] Had you guys looked at being open with each other, “Hey, what are my expectations here?” And Jazmyne was like, “I actually want to get my nails done once in a while.” Straight up, direct. “Here’s what I’m doing in terms of my income. I’m not committing to getting another job for at least three more years.” Straight up, honest.

[01:05:14] Then you would’ve made a different decision. But the fact is you spoke in these phrases, “I got it.” That actually is not sufficient for a purchase that’s going to cost you over a million dollars when you factor all your expenses in. Fact is, here we are. So what do we want to do? I’m putting these numbers back up. Either you guys are going to tell me what you want to do or we’re going to end up stuck.

[01:05:36] Sunnie: So I’m going to pay off my credit card debt.

[01:05:39] Ramit: How?

[01:05:40] Sunnie: Instead of using that guilt-free money of the taxes coming this week, I’m paying it off.

[01:05:45] Ramit: Nice. I agree. That’s a good call. So what will that take your debt payments down to? What?

[01:05:49] Sunnie: $0.

[01:05:51] Ramit: Okay. What else?

[01:05:52] Sunnie: Our insurance is going to be 224 instead of 321.

[01:05:56] Ramit: Good job. Down to 66. Keep going. We’re getting close. This is great. Jazmyne, your turn.

[01:06:00] Jazmyne: I’ll have to look at my subscriptions. I can cut it down to under 100.

[01:06:06] Ramit: You got therapy included in your subscriptions?

[01:06:09] Sunnie: Yeah, that’s where we put it.

[01:06:10] Ramit: What is the rest of this stuff, the extra 234.

[01:06:13] Jazmyne: My Pilates.

[01:06:15] Sunnie: Netflix, HBO Max, Apple Music. I think the biggest cut would be taking her Pilates out of the 159, which is 119. And then I think we budgeted 180 for therapy.

[01:06:30] Ramit: 180. Watch. Watch how fast I changed this number. This number becomes 180 and this number becomes 30. Done deal. You got your therapy. Keep that. 30 bucks, you can have one streaming subscription. Good luck. Y’all don’t have time to watch TV anymore. You have to assemble and disassemble boxes in your new house.

[01:06:50] All right. One more thing. Big changes we’re going to make. Guilt-free spending, I don’t think so. So tell me what you want to do for your guilt-free spending. It’s at 24%. I typically recommend 20 to 35%.

[01:07:00] Jazmyne: You can cut his down to 1,000.

[01:07:03] Ramit: Okay, and what about yours?

[01:07:06] Jazmyne: You can cut me down to 150.

[01:07:09] Ramit: Okay.  All right, you’re at 12%. Actually, not bad. You have some money to play with now. Here’s how I would approach it. I would definitely start investing a little bit of money. Anybody get a 401(k)?

[01:07:23] Sunnie: I do.

[01:07:24] Ramit: You get a 401(k) match?

[01:07:26] Sunnie: 6%.

[01:07:27] Ramit: Okay? Did you set it up?

[01:07:30] Sunnie: Not yet.

[01:07:32] Ramit: Oh, all right. Let’s do that. This debt needs to go away yesterday. There’s no [Bleep] way you can be making $180,000 and have $10,000 plus in credit card debt. Can y’all pay off that credit card debt faster?

[01:07:46] Jazmyne: Yeah, we can.

[01:07:47] Ramit: 2,000 bucks to your credit card, that’ll take it down fast. What else other income you have coming in?

[01:07:52] Sunnie: My business right now is bringing roughly between 2 to 6k a month?

[01:07:57] Ramit: That’s pretty good. 2 to 6k. What the hell? So you’re making 2 to 6k extra on top of this.

[01:08:03] Sunnie: Yes, yes.

[01:08:03] Ramit: [Bleep] great. And what do you do with that money right now?

[01:08:06] Sunnie: It’s just sitting in the business account, paying for the business stuff.

[01:08:10] Ramit: What the [Bleep]? Sunnie, listen closely. Do you know how much you’re paying in interest for this credit card debt?

[01:08:19] Sunnie: 18% APR.

[01:08:21] Ramit: Yeah. At least. Meanwhile, you have money just sitting in a savings account. Makes no sense. How much money you have sitting in your business checking account?

[01:08:29] Sunnie: Right now I have 4,500.

[01:08:32] Ramit: Okay. I will say as a business owner, sometimes you make way more than you think. Maybe you take a distribution.

[01:08:39] Sunnie: No, I am.

[01:08:42] Ramit: So where is that on the CSP?

[01:08:42] Sunnie: It will have to go under net monthly income.

[01:08:45] Ramit: Yeah. Right here. What numbers should we put?

[01:08:48] Sunnie: I’ll just put 2K because it’s so everywhere.

[01:08:50] Ramit: Hell, that’s exactly what I would’ve done. Always be conservative. So we’re going to change this 7,000 to 9,000. Watch what happens to the number. 65% drops to 54%. Yo, that’s pretty good. That’s really amazing. I’m going to leave it up there for a second, but let me tell you something. Not everyone can just have money fall down from the sky. 2k net per month, that’s amazing.

[01:09:12] Y’all got to make another change in your financial relationship because what just happened is basically Sunnie came in and saved the day again. It’s not healthy for the two of you. Let it this way. Sunnie gets hit by a bus and then Jazmyne, you’re left, what are you going to do?

[01:09:26] Jazmyne: I’ll probably eat up our savings. I’ll probably grab another job, like bartending or serving, I’ll work a lot more, so I won’t be there physically for him.

[01:09:38] Ramit: No, he’s dead.

[01:09:38] Sunnie: I am dead.

[01:09:39] Jazmyne: Oh, you’re dead. Oh, baby. I thought you made it. Okay. You’re dead.

[01:09:45] Ramit: I’m glad that we both emphasize. Let’s take a second and I’ll take a moment of silence. Sunnie, the M35 bus really did him dirty. Okay. He’s gone. He’s long gone.

[01:09:55] Sunnie: I’m never walking in front of a bus ever again.

[01:09:57] Ramit: Okay, the point I was trying to make, Jazmyne, is we can’t just have Sunnie handling the finances because one day Sunnie might not be here. I told my wife that too. I said, “I’m going to get hit by a bus one day or whatever. I want you to be knowledgeable about money, capable, competent. That means we all got to talk about this stuff together. You got to know how to make decisions, and I want you to make some decisions about this stuff.”

[01:10:21] I don’t mind that the two of you have different incomes. That’s totally fine. Nobody is asking you to have the same incomes. Jazmyne, I do think that you currently make, what, 44,000 a year?

[01:10:33] Jazmyne: Yes.

[01:10:34] Ramit: Do you want to be able to travel, put kids in activities, things like that?

[01:10:40] Jazmyne: Yes.

[01:10:41] Ramit: Okay. What would you be willing to do in order for that to be possible?

[01:10:44] Jazmyne: Change my career field.

[01:10:45] Ramit: Okay. You’re down to do that?

[01:10:47] Jazmyne: Yes.

[01:10:48] Ramit: If I give you access to my career program, it’s called Find Your Dream job, would you go through it and follow the steps in it?

[01:10:55] Jazmyne: Yes.

[01:10:56] Ramit: Yeah? It’s not easy. You’re going to talk to people. You’re going to do informational interviews, you’re going to learn how people land elite jobs the same way I landed job offers at Google and a hedge fund and all these places. It is exactly how the best jobs are found.

[01:11:12] Jazmyne: I’m willing to do that.

[01:11:13] Ramit: Okay. I will give you access to it. Go through the program. Keep me updated. I have a lot of confidence. I think the biggest thing you’re going to find, which is going to surprise you in a positive way, is that you can make more money and actually have a really good quality of life.

[01:11:30]  All right. So here’s what we’ve discovered so far. We’ve discovered that your CSP can be improved quite a bit, especially when we take into account Sunnie’s additional income. Sunnie, great work on that income. We’ve discovered that the two of you have the opportunity to work through money much more effectively. I also think that right now both are living like day-to-day, month-to-month.

[01:11:54] I don’t hear a big vision, and it shows on your CSP because I don’t see any savings for the future. I don’t see any investments. The way I see it is you’re going to live like this for the next 40 years unless you make a change.  All right. How are you both feeling right now?

[01:12:10] Jazmyne: I’m feeling a lot of different emotions, but mostly positive, more assertive. It’s time for me to make some decisions and stop going with the flow.

[01:12:20] Ramit: I love that. Assertive. I love that word. I think that’s the first time we’ve heard that today. Okay, great. Sunnie, how are you feeling?

[01:12:26] Sunnie: I’m feeling hopeful. We’ve had conversations like this before. Not in this depth or in this way, but I’m feeling really hopeful about the changes, especially seeing where we need to start to cut stuff out and how easy it could be if we just did it.

[01:12:40] Ramit: Love that. How easy it can be. Sometimes the easiest thing is just to be decisive. It’s like we sit down and we go, “Okay, we’re not getting up from this couch until we get this number down to 65% or 62%.”

[01:12:51] Sunnie: Right.

[01:12:52] Ramit: Boom. Set some stakes. Okay, great. And what surprised you during this conversation?

[01:12:57] Sunnie: Honestly, thinking that we were being direct with each other and we weren’t. Moving forward, we got to be direct to put ourselves in a better position.

[Narration]

[01:13:05] Ramit: There’s this myth that money is just numbers on a spreadsheet. Money is neutral. It’s all about what’s in cell C42. Have you all been listening to this freaking podcast? One of the central points of this podcast is that money is far more than numbers alone.

[01:13:22] Money is emotional. Money is safety. Money is growth. Money is connection. Money is political. And that is true for everyone, and especially when you are Black, queer, trans, multiracial. Money takes on meanings that you may not understand, but those meanings are nonetheless real.

[01:13:40] Now, money can be about safety, about feeling like you have some control in a world that often doesn’t feel safe to you. Let’s translate that to Sunnie and Jazmyne who bought their house because they were scared. Candidly, the numbers don’t look great, but most financial mistakes can be fixed.

[01:13:59] The real problem that they weren’t actually talking to each other. Sunnie tried to carry everything on his own. Jazmyne pulled back. Truthfully, if it wasn’t the house, it would’ve been another financial decision that simply exposed this dynamic. That’s why the real issue here isn’t just the house, but the financial dynamic between the two of them.

[01:14:20] Now, in this conversation, for the first time, they actually spoke to each other out loud, directly about money and their feelings. Remember that in order to live a  Rich Life, you have to be honest, honest with yourself, and honest with the people around you. Hearing them be honest with each other, I’m confident they can make a change. I gifted Jazmyne my dream job program to help her identify a career path that aligns with her  Rich Life.

[01:14:48] If you are struggling to figure out what your dream job is, or you simply want to earn a lot more money for working, you can join my program at iwt.com/dreamjob.

[01:15:01] Now let’s see what happened after the camera stopped rolling.

[01:15:05] Jazmyne: Hey, you guys.

[01:15:07] Sunnie: Hey, everybody.

[01:15:08] Jazmyne: It’s Jazmyne and Sunnie. It’s been about a month since we met with him, so I would definitely say our first two weeks we got straight to it. We came up with a plan. We took care of my medical bills. I have been in tune with his program finding my dream job. I decided to go to school, so I’ll be starting this summer so that I can figure out exactly what it is I want to do career wise and bring more to the table for us as well.

[01:15:39] Sunnie: And for me, we aggressively paid off my credit card debt that I had. I did solidify a contract that is bringing in extra income. It will put us at our three months saving mark. And with these changes that we’ve been making, I know we were at the 70% when we met with Ramit, and we’re now at–

[01:16:01] Jazmyne: 56.

[01:16:03] Sunnie: 56%.

[01:16:04] Jazmyne: So we’re in the right range we’re supposed to be.

[01:16:06] Sunnie: We also were able to get Jazmyne on my car insurance and also our phone bill.

[01:16:11] Jazmyne: Yeah. We realized we were paying for a lot of those extra fees.

[01:16:15] Sunnie: And we also got our subscriptions down.

[01:16:17] Jazmyne: We did get our subscriptions down.

[01:16:20] Sunnie: A lot.

[01:16:20] Jazmyne: A lot.

[01:16:21] Sunnie: I also did set up my 401(k), which has a 5% match with my job. So I’m hitting that ballpark and finally opened my investment stock that I’ve been procrastinating on doing as well.

[01:16:38] Jazmyne: Within the last week, started reading the book, one chapter a week. So it’s been going pretty well.

[01:16:48] Sunnie: I think we’ve really been cognizant of everything we’ve done so far. I’ve seen a big change in our savings, and yeah, I’m just excited.

[01:17:00] Jazmyne: I think we basically came to an understanding on what we both want for our future. And with us starting our new chapter in life, trying to start a family and all that, trying to be set up financially so that we can start a great family and our kids don’t have to go do what we went through. So thank you guys for everything.

[01:17:21] Sunnie: Thank you so much, and we’ll keep you posted.

[01:17:23] Jazmyne: Yes. Bye.